David Kramer: "We are ready to review visa ban list when Kazulin is released"
Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for European
and Eurasian Affairs told European Radio for Belarus that he doesn't
exclude the possibility of more severe sanctions of the US towards Belarus. But
when the last political prisoner will be released the United States may consider
lifting visa ban for Belarusian officials. David Kramer is surprised why it is
more "profitable" for Belarusian government to keep Alexander Kazulin
in jail instead of improvement of relations with the West.
He admits that the US and the EU have a common goal which is democratization of Belarus - but sometimes share the roles. The White House representative thinks that Belarusian letter to the UN isn't a wise step because it is Belarus who isn't fulfilling its international obligations by putting people in jail for political purposes.
ERB: - Thank you for your eagerness to give interview to European Radio for Belarus. You're in Brussels now - whom did you meet here today and what issues concerning Belarus did you discuss?
David Kramer: - I arrived this morning in Brussels (March 14th - ERB) to meet with number of EU colleagues both from capitals as well as working here in Brussels and what we discussed is further efforts in coordination and consultation of our policy towards Belarus and how we can obtain the release of the last political prisoner Alexander Kazulin. And I come away feeling that coordination and cooperation between the US and the EU remain very strong and I come away feeling very good about this knowing that we are united in demanding the release of Alexander Kazulin in order to open the door for possibility of new relations between Belarus and the West.
ERB: - Is the demand to release Alexander Kazuiln the only strong argument about which the US and the EU agreed about the police towards Belarusian regime? What about EU's feeling about the sanctions against "Belneftekhim"? Some analysts in Belarus say that you use the "bad cop/good cop" strategy where Americans traditionally play the role of a "bad cop" and the EU tries to show that it is much softer towards Belarus…
David Kramer: -There may be differences in tactics how we approach Belarus but no one should be questioning that the European Union and the United states are completely together on our overall objectives. And those objectives are to secure the release of all political prisoners in Belarus and to begin a process where we can engage with the government and the society there to advance further liberalization steps where we response in a positive way on a number of fronts.
Certainly last year the United States expanded its visa ban list, we imposed the sanctions on November 13th on "Belneftekhim" as you've mentioned and the European Union did not do the same thing. We didn't ask the European Union to do the same thing. Sometimes we carve our roles between us, between the European Union and the United States. Sometimes it is easier for one or the other to take certain steps. I think that it was just easier to move ahead with those steps last year and that's fine. It doesn't change the overall objectives that we have in common.
"We also are prepared if we feel we have no choice to go further with additional sanctions against Belarus."
ERB: - So your move was not criticized by Brussels? Though there might be that worsening of the relations between the US and Belarus may harm Belarusian intentions to fulfill the 12 requests of the European Union. What's your prediction on that?
David Kramer: -We support the plan that was put by the European Union in December 2006. In fact we very much share its goals. We would follow the similar path if the government of Belarus released the final political prisoner Alexander Kazulin. So, I feel that we are very much in think with the EU on this.
We had really little choice but to take the step that we did on March 6 which was to have the US Treasury Department issue the announcement that clarified or elaborated on the sanctions that were imposed on "Belneftekhim" in November. We also are prepared if we feel we have no choice to go further with additional sanctions against Belarus.
ERB: - Like?..
David Kramer: -I'm not going to go deep into the details because that would be tipping our hand and I'm not interested in doing that.
ERB: - But could you clarify the meaning of the clarification of 6th of March? There are speculations that it imposed new sanctions and then there are those who say it just clarified sanctions already in place…
David Kramer: -The US Department of Treasury is in the best position to explain exactly but I think it is a sort of in the eye of the beholder. It isn't necessarily new sanctions but it seems we've been interpreted in that way by the government of Belarus. I'm not going to sit there and try to persuade them otherwise.
What we have done is to demonstrate to the government of Belarus that we are very serious about demanding the release of all political prisoners as the minimal step that the government of Belarus should take in order to move forward in relations not only with us but with the European Union as well.
United States demonstrated last year and again on March 6 and if need be we will do that again that we are serious about holding the government of Belarus to account.
We want better relations with Belarus. It is not in the US interests to see this current tension in relations with the recall of Belarusian ambassador from Washington with basically forcing out of our ambassador in Minsk, Karen Stewart.
That's not in anyone's interests and we're not interested in escalating tensions between our two governments. But it's up to the government of Belarus. They need to decide whether it is more important to keep Alexander Kazulin in jail or it is more in the government's, in the country's interests of Belarus to improve the relations with the West. To me it's a simple choice: release Kazulin and advance relations with the Belarus. But so far it isn't the choice the government of Belarus seems to be making.
"First of all, we will finally be able to say positive things about the government of Belarus"
ERB: - You told earlier that if they release Alexander Kazulin the US government will not lift the sanctions immediately but it will start negotiations. What things the US government can offer to Belarus? The European Union seems to offer better visa regime, some other things which are very material. What the US government will be eager to offer Belarusian regime in some way in exchange to decision to release Mr. Kazulin?
David Kramer: - First of all, we will finally be able to say positive things about the government of Belarus. I think that this is important. Just recently as this past week President Bush in highlighting the important role the women leaders play in the world stated Belarus is a problem. It would be nice to be able to no longer put Belarus in the category of countries like Cuba and North Korea and Burma.
Moreover, we would begin the process where we would start to review some of the sanctions that we put in place including undoing the visa ban list that we imposed last summer and looking in to how we might address the executive order that President Bush signed that paves a way for sanctions against the government…
There are number of positive things we could do including improving our trade relations, including moving forward on deeper relations with Belarus's military, enhancing exchange programs.
There have been significant restrictions on Belarusian exchanges of students and professionals; we'd like to see those restrictions lifted as well as travel restrictions. So that there can be more exchanges between Belarusians and Americans. I think that is in both countries' interest.
It would be good to see Belarus taking its rightful place in the European community of nations and no longer be isolated.
ERB: - Following the possible release of Alexander Kazulin what further steps Belarusian government should do to make sure that its relations with the US and the West in general improve? Or is it the only requirement you have to Belarus currently?
David Kramer: - No, certainly it's a minimum. They cannot fill the jail cells that have been emptied as a result of releasing 6 political prisoners (if Kazulin is released) with new political prisoners. Nor should the ones who had been released be returned to the jail.
We'd want to see the lifting of the travel restrictions that were imposed effect of January 1st and certainly looking ahead to the parliamentary elections. We would want to make sure we make everything we can and they make everything they can to make those elections as free and fair as possible. It is interesting that Mr. Lukashenko said he would welcome the OSCE's ODIHR mission that monitors elections to access Belarus ahead of September parliamentary elections. We welcome that proposal. We would want to help and see if we could finally have elections there that would pass the international test. So all these things are steps that we would want to see them take.
"Belarus should not underestimate our seriousness and determination to respond in kind if need be"
ERB: - Have these things been discussed previously with Belarusian government? Belarusian MFA states that the US government has broken some "algorithm" of normalization of relations between Belarus and the West. Is this that "algorithm" they're talking about - all those steps?
David Kramer: - We have supported a "step-by-step" approach, a "selective engagement" approach, the proposal put forward by the EU in December 2006. The United States is not the obstacle here. The obstacle is the treatment of the government of Belarus of its own people. Once the government of Belarus indicates that it is serious about improvement of relations with the West - and the way to do that is to release all political prisoners. Then we begin a dialogue where we have reasonable give-and-take between not only Belarus but between the United States and the European Union as well. So the problem is the continued jailing of Alexander Kazulin. And that's what we hope that the Belarusian government will address.
ERB: - But today the Belarusian government addressed the UN Secretary General saying that the US government has broken the Memorandum 1994 which was connected to nuclear neutrality of Belarus and the US took the responsibility not to put economic pressure on Belarus. There is slight possibility that Belarus could use this argument to bring back the nuclear weapons or to do some other further steps to show the seriousness of its intentions. Belarus has also said that it has warned the US government about "strict responsive measures". Could you as a representative of the US government tell us what kind of strict measures you are expecting from Belarus if it doesn't agree to release Alexander Kazulin?
David Kramer: -Let me start by saying: Belarus is a member of Organization of Security and Cooperation in Europe and as such it is to obide by respect for human rights and freedom and democracy - and it's doing none of that. So it's time Belarus lives up to its international obligations.
Going to the UN is frankly rather silly move. We obviously have a different view on the Budapest Memorandum 1994. We feel that Belarus is the country that is not living up to its international obligations by jailing people for political purposes, by treating its population the way it has. And that's the source of the problem. Belarusian threats to escalate the problems with the United States, I hope, are carefully thought through because they should not underestimate our seriousness and determination to respond in kind if need be.
We hope they don't take any further steps, we'll examine seriously any steps that they might take. But our focus is on securing the release of Kazulin. It's the government of Belarus that seems to be making the decision that keeping Kazulin is more important to them than improving relations with the West.
by Alena Wasilewska
Photo- Charter'97
He admits that the US and the EU have a common goal which is democratization of Belarus - but sometimes share the roles. The White House representative thinks that Belarusian letter to the UN isn't a wise step because it is Belarus who isn't fulfilling its international obligations by putting people in jail for political purposes.
ERB: - Thank you for your eagerness to give interview to European Radio for Belarus. You're in Brussels now - whom did you meet here today and what issues concerning Belarus did you discuss?
David Kramer: - I arrived this morning in Brussels (March 14th - ERB) to meet with number of EU colleagues both from capitals as well as working here in Brussels and what we discussed is further efforts in coordination and consultation of our policy towards Belarus and how we can obtain the release of the last political prisoner Alexander Kazulin. And I come away feeling that coordination and cooperation between the US and the EU remain very strong and I come away feeling very good about this knowing that we are united in demanding the release of Alexander Kazulin in order to open the door for possibility of new relations between Belarus and the West.
ERB: - Is the demand to release Alexander Kazuiln the only strong argument about which the US and the EU agreed about the police towards Belarusian regime? What about EU's feeling about the sanctions against "Belneftekhim"? Some analysts in Belarus say that you use the "bad cop/good cop" strategy where Americans traditionally play the role of a "bad cop" and the EU tries to show that it is much softer towards Belarus…
David Kramer: -There may be differences in tactics how we approach Belarus but no one should be questioning that the European Union and the United states are completely together on our overall objectives. And those objectives are to secure the release of all political prisoners in Belarus and to begin a process where we can engage with the government and the society there to advance further liberalization steps where we response in a positive way on a number of fronts.
Certainly last year the United States expanded its visa ban list, we imposed the sanctions on November 13th on "Belneftekhim" as you've mentioned and the European Union did not do the same thing. We didn't ask the European Union to do the same thing. Sometimes we carve our roles between us, between the European Union and the United States. Sometimes it is easier for one or the other to take certain steps. I think that it was just easier to move ahead with those steps last year and that's fine. It doesn't change the overall objectives that we have in common.
"We also are prepared if we feel we have no choice to go further with additional sanctions against Belarus."
ERB: - So your move was not criticized by Brussels? Though there might be that worsening of the relations between the US and Belarus may harm Belarusian intentions to fulfill the 12 requests of the European Union. What's your prediction on that?
David Kramer: -We support the plan that was put by the European Union in December 2006. In fact we very much share its goals. We would follow the similar path if the government of Belarus released the final political prisoner Alexander Kazulin. So, I feel that we are very much in think with the EU on this.
We had really little choice but to take the step that we did on March 6 which was to have the US Treasury Department issue the announcement that clarified or elaborated on the sanctions that were imposed on "Belneftekhim" in November. We also are prepared if we feel we have no choice to go further with additional sanctions against Belarus.
ERB: - Like?..
David Kramer: -I'm not going to go deep into the details because that would be tipping our hand and I'm not interested in doing that.
ERB: - But could you clarify the meaning of the clarification of 6th of March? There are speculations that it imposed new sanctions and then there are those who say it just clarified sanctions already in place…
David Kramer: -The US Department of Treasury is in the best position to explain exactly but I think it is a sort of in the eye of the beholder. It isn't necessarily new sanctions but it seems we've been interpreted in that way by the government of Belarus. I'm not going to sit there and try to persuade them otherwise.
What we have done is to demonstrate to the government of Belarus that we are very serious about demanding the release of all political prisoners as the minimal step that the government of Belarus should take in order to move forward in relations not only with us but with the European Union as well.
United States demonstrated last year and again on March 6 and if need be we will do that again that we are serious about holding the government of Belarus to account.
We want better relations with Belarus. It is not in the US interests to see this current tension in relations with the recall of Belarusian ambassador from Washington with basically forcing out of our ambassador in Minsk, Karen Stewart.
That's not in anyone's interests and we're not interested in escalating tensions between our two governments. But it's up to the government of Belarus. They need to decide whether it is more important to keep Alexander Kazulin in jail or it is more in the government's, in the country's interests of Belarus to improve the relations with the West. To me it's a simple choice: release Kazulin and advance relations with the Belarus. But so far it isn't the choice the government of Belarus seems to be making.
"First of all, we will finally be able to say positive things about the government of Belarus"
ERB: - You told earlier that if they release Alexander Kazulin the US government will not lift the sanctions immediately but it will start negotiations. What things the US government can offer to Belarus? The European Union seems to offer better visa regime, some other things which are very material. What the US government will be eager to offer Belarusian regime in some way in exchange to decision to release Mr. Kazulin?
David Kramer: - First of all, we will finally be able to say positive things about the government of Belarus. I think that this is important. Just recently as this past week President Bush in highlighting the important role the women leaders play in the world stated Belarus is a problem. It would be nice to be able to no longer put Belarus in the category of countries like Cuba and North Korea and Burma.
Moreover, we would begin the process where we would start to review some of the sanctions that we put in place including undoing the visa ban list that we imposed last summer and looking in to how we might address the executive order that President Bush signed that paves a way for sanctions against the government…
There are number of positive things we could do including improving our trade relations, including moving forward on deeper relations with Belarus's military, enhancing exchange programs.
There have been significant restrictions on Belarusian exchanges of students and professionals; we'd like to see those restrictions lifted as well as travel restrictions. So that there can be more exchanges between Belarusians and Americans. I think that is in both countries' interest.
It would be good to see Belarus taking its rightful place in the European community of nations and no longer be isolated.
ERB: - Following the possible release of Alexander Kazulin what further steps Belarusian government should do to make sure that its relations with the US and the West in general improve? Or is it the only requirement you have to Belarus currently?
David Kramer: - No, certainly it's a minimum. They cannot fill the jail cells that have been emptied as a result of releasing 6 political prisoners (if Kazulin is released) with new political prisoners. Nor should the ones who had been released be returned to the jail.
We'd want to see the lifting of the travel restrictions that were imposed effect of January 1st and certainly looking ahead to the parliamentary elections. We would want to make sure we make everything we can and they make everything they can to make those elections as free and fair as possible. It is interesting that Mr. Lukashenko said he would welcome the OSCE's ODIHR mission that monitors elections to access Belarus ahead of September parliamentary elections. We welcome that proposal. We would want to help and see if we could finally have elections there that would pass the international test. So all these things are steps that we would want to see them take.
"Belarus should not underestimate our seriousness and determination to respond in kind if need be"
ERB: - Have these things been discussed previously with Belarusian government? Belarusian MFA states that the US government has broken some "algorithm" of normalization of relations between Belarus and the West. Is this that "algorithm" they're talking about - all those steps?
David Kramer: - We have supported a "step-by-step" approach, a "selective engagement" approach, the proposal put forward by the EU in December 2006. The United States is not the obstacle here. The obstacle is the treatment of the government of Belarus of its own people. Once the government of Belarus indicates that it is serious about improvement of relations with the West - and the way to do that is to release all political prisoners. Then we begin a dialogue where we have reasonable give-and-take between not only Belarus but between the United States and the European Union as well. So the problem is the continued jailing of Alexander Kazulin. And that's what we hope that the Belarusian government will address.
ERB: - But today the Belarusian government addressed the UN Secretary General saying that the US government has broken the Memorandum 1994 which was connected to nuclear neutrality of Belarus and the US took the responsibility not to put economic pressure on Belarus. There is slight possibility that Belarus could use this argument to bring back the nuclear weapons or to do some other further steps to show the seriousness of its intentions. Belarus has also said that it has warned the US government about "strict responsive measures". Could you as a representative of the US government tell us what kind of strict measures you are expecting from Belarus if it doesn't agree to release Alexander Kazulin?
David Kramer: -Let me start by saying: Belarus is a member of Organization of Security and Cooperation in Europe and as such it is to obide by respect for human rights and freedom and democracy - and it's doing none of that. So it's time Belarus lives up to its international obligations.
Going to the UN is frankly rather silly move. We obviously have a different view on the Budapest Memorandum 1994. We feel that Belarus is the country that is not living up to its international obligations by jailing people for political purposes, by treating its population the way it has. And that's the source of the problem. Belarusian threats to escalate the problems with the United States, I hope, are carefully thought through because they should not underestimate our seriousness and determination to respond in kind if need be.
We hope they don't take any further steps, we'll examine seriously any steps that they might take. But our focus is on securing the release of Kazulin. It's the government of Belarus that seems to be making the decision that keeping Kazulin is more important to them than improving relations with the West.
by Alena Wasilewska
Photo- Charter'97
